Season 1 | Episode 1
The Digital Future of Traditional Media Buying
Season 1 of Paid Media Coffee focuses on taking a deeper dive into the influence of digital media and digital platforms on traditional media buying. How are brands navigating this new and quickly changing landscape?
Our host, Kelly Mancuso, welcomes Nebo co-founder Brian Easter, SVP of Strategy Jenn Vickery, and Paid Media Associate Casey Baker to take a look at the past, present, and future of advertising in this new digital age.
Kelly: Hello and welcome to the very first episode of Paid Media Coffee. I'm your host Kelly Mancuso. Today, I'm joined by three of my colleagues. I'm really excited to be talking about the digital future of traditional media buying. I have Brian Easter. He is the co-founder of Nebo. Welcome, Brian.
Brian: Thank you for letting me be here. Even though I don't get to touch paid media campaigns anymore.
Kelly: You're my boss.
Kelly: You have Jenn Vickery is our SVP of digital strategy. Welcome, Jenn.
Jenn: Thanks it's good to be here.
Kelly: And we also have Casey Baker a paid media associate.
Casey: Thanks, Kelly. I'm excited to be here.
Kelly: Cool! Well for our first episode and actually our first season our topic as I mentioned is going to be the digital future of traditional media buying and the reason for that is, you know, there used to be a really clear line between digital and traditional but as technologies have emerged and media consumption has shifted those lines have become very blurry.
So, our goal with this first season is to address that convergence and talk about what advertisers and marketers need to know. How to take advantage of opportunities and also the challenges that come with those things so to get started our first episode where we'll be talking about things that are high level and really setting the foundation for a future conversation.
As I mentioned the paid media industry is very fast-paced; things are changing and you know, not even just since advertising started and the golden age or the Mad Men era but really in the last 10 years 5 years, even two years. We've seen such a big shift in the advertising landscape. So I'd love to hear from each of you on what personal experiences you have and what your point of view on that shift is. Casey, why don't you start?
Casey: The biggest thing that I have kind of noticed over the past, even a couple of years, is that brands used to be scared to interact with people. They were afraid people are going to complain didn't want that negative interaction, but kind of to go along with what consumers are kind of expecting more and more out of these brands.
So they want to be able to do things quickly. They don't want to have to wait for anything. They want things to be automated. They want to be able to find the information. They need it at the snap of your finger. I know for me personally, I expect Alexa to be able to turn on my TV to be able to order my groceries.
And then I expect that when I order those groceries they are able to be delivered within a few hours. I get a notification about when they're going to be delivered and then once they're actually delivered I get like a picture of them sitting at my front door. So I think that's something that has definitely evolved over even like I said the past year and that expectation has really just escalated.
Brian: What's funny Casey that you said that is that Nebo's other co-founder Adam Harold has a six-year-old daughter. And we were celebrating my mom's 70th birthday on a family vacation and his daughter in the hotel was "Alexa play Katy Perry" and you know, there was no Alexa and she's like "Dad, there's no Alexa." He's like we have Siri. I have Siri on my phone and she's like "Siri play Katy Perry" Adams like "she only recognizes my voice" and she's like "Dad" and it was so amazing because she expects everything all the time quite different than all the experiences we had.
Jenn: I had a similar experience but instead of me trying to find a voice assistant, it's me standing in my condo yelling at my Google Home trying to make it understand me. So I'm sure my neighbors are really excited about me yelling, "OK Google" a million times over and over again. But I would say in my experience over the past 10, 13, 15 years in marketing my job has become more difficult but easier at the same time. Back when I started like Casey was mentioning it was more of a broadcast mentality where there was a lot of pressure to get a single message very right and for the masses, because you only had one or two chances to put something out there and broadcast it. And there wasn't a lot of opportunities to test we weren't able to change things very quickly. Whereas now there's a lot of opportunity to test and change quickly which makes it more complicated, but it also makes it so much better for our audiences and for our own learning to make sure that we're doing something meaningful.
Brian: Well I'll challenge you a little bit there. I agree with you, but I think there's a yin and yang to it. I think that you know for 70-plus years we did broadcast messages in there was no interaction. I think interaction's great. I think having data is great. I think one of the byproducts of that though is there ends up being a MarTech Focus instead of a consumer Focus.
Everybody's focused on, you know, I have this technology. I have this tool I have this targeting and sometimes you lose a little bit of the story that Brands tell because there's so focused on being present versus being present in a meaningful way.
Jenn: That's a good point.
Kelly: That's definitely something that we've experienced, you know working on different campaigns. You can have an amazing strategy and have the best targeting and use the coolest new technologies, but at the end of the day if your approach and your creative and your messaging and you know your intent isn't right, then it's not going to make an impact.
Casey: I think going along with that, the buyer Journey has just become even more and more important because people they don't want they expect that, you know where they're at in the buyer journey, and if you hit them the wrong spot essentially, it's not going to impact them. You only have a few seconds to make an impact and I think that those few seconds are getting dwindling as we continue to see these rapid changes happening.
Brian: I think that really is something that's interesting to talk about because when I think about when Nebo first started. We considered ourselves a digital agency. Now, we consider ourselves a human-centered agency built for the digital age and those might sound like marketing buzzwords. They sort of are but they're not just marketing words. It's a whole new mentality. We are in a digital age and our job isn't to put people in a traditional bucket or a digital bucket because that's not how people experience Brands as I say, how do we meet the user where they're at?
In a meaningful way and that puts a lot of pressure on you guys because there are so many tools and platforms into a marketer's job today is infinitely harder. There's a lot more leverage you can push but you went from driving a car to have to sort of like flying in an F-16 and you also did had to do that in like no time.
Kelly: I know Jenn you and I were talking about how back in the day, you know coming up with paid media strategy. Fairly simple, you know, you do some keyword research and reach out to different Publishers that you wanted to show your ads on and now you've got a handful of social platforms that think of you've got programmatic vendors.
You've got linear TV OTT all of these different things and trying to think about what makes the most sense for a certain client or certain goal, you know, the opportunities are kind of endless and what you can do.
Jenn: I think it's been challenging for traditional marketers and digital marketers to wrap their arms around the convergence of both those mediums for me. I entered as a digital marketer, but a lot of my job today is understanding traditional and how these two things are really merging and we'll get into that a little bit later. But I mean, you know, I never when I first started I didn't have to know how to buy TV, but it's so intertwined these days and for traditional marketers as well. They have to learn digital strategies and how digital works in their ecosystem.
Kelly: And that's a really good transition point into our next topic. I want to talk about the differences between digital and traditional and I know we've been throwing those words around already in the podcast, but just to kind of take a step back.
I want to define the differences. So everyone is on the same page about what we're talking about here. Jenn can you go ahead and Define what we're talking about when we say traditional
Jenn: Sure, we're talking about traditional we're talking about again those broadcasts methods of advertising. Think back to, you know, we're talking about traditional TV commercials and advertisements we're talking about traditional radio that you would listen to in your car.
We're talking about billboards. We're talking about print, so things like magazines. Papers direct mailers so all of those kinds of one-way transactional types of advertising mediums.
Kelly: Thanks, Casey. Will you tell us what digital is?
Casey: Digital is essentially anything that is delivered through a digital platform. S,o advertising across the web on mobile in podcast even apps and then in today's changing industry sometimes even radio.
Brian: One of the things that you know to add to that always bothered me and our industry is that there was not a reason they had to be separated for this long. There's been the technology to make TV and some of these other things a two-way medium and industries lag behind and it's really strange to think and I think some of that was because, to Casey's point earlier, brands were uncomfortable. With engagement, you know 20 years ago, but the Technology's been there but now apple and Amazon and others of sort of forced it because with you know streaming and with these on-demand platforms, it definitely changed things and there's a whole group of people that aren't just sitting there passively consuming their driving that directly versus waiting for a show to come on at eight o'clock.
Jenn: I think you bring up a good point in terms of marketers. We're constantly reacting to either market-driven changes or tech-driven changes, so whether it's consumers behaving a different way of consuming media reacting a different way or its tech. Like you said, Apple for pushing those changes upon us. We're always just trying to catch up.
Casey: Just piggybacking on that as well. I think traditional, in a way is almost safer because it's a one-way conversation as opposed to digital where it's more personalized. It's more one-to-one in a two-way conversation where the consumer has a say they can react to your ads. So, in a way like you said kind of in terms of why these two channels have been separated. I think it has a lot to do with these big companies playing it safe and being kind of scared of just the unknown of digital and how people can react and things like that.
Brian: I know some of you guys don't remember this, but I remember when the early days of the Internet, Brands were saying people aren't going to buy online people aren't going to this and social came in there like no we don't need a social like, oh, well, are you crazy people could talk to us and we might have to respond and now, you know, there's obviously social budgets for both paid and organic. But one of the other things is very very interesting in this sort of convergence of traditional and digital is.
Marketers are going to have to evolve like Jenn said. The digital focus marketers are going to have to evolve into understanding the platforms and understanding the language and the measurements and the goals of a traditional broadcast or radio. But the traditional folks are going to have to understand interaction because digital people understand interaction.
They understand interaction on-site the interests and interaction in a platform and now we're going to literally be sitting watching a television show seeing a Domino's commercial and saying oh, yeah, I do want that, you know order that pizza and there's going to be some interaction and it might be add to cart.
It might be these other things but from broadcast only that's going to be a seismic change in how the ad experiences change is not just the buying but the entire process.
Kelly: But what about other differences and other things that we need to consider when planning a strategy?
Jenn: I think Kelly that we're - we're obviously biased but I think that were we probably sound like we're hating on traditional media a lot and I and I don't want it to come across that way because for so long that has been the most efficient way to get in front of a lot of people in your audience. I mean, it's all based on the way that people consume media and for a long time before, you know, the prevalence of digital it was through print and radio and billboards and all these mediums and there's a lot to say.
I think there's still a ton of value in advertising those mediums because it's for the masses right you reach a lot of people so I don't want our listeners to think that were, you know, not we don't see value in traditional because there's still a ton of value in traditional. I think where we're we're trying to lead this conversation is that there's so much convergence now between traditional and digital that, you know, we have to consider the fundamentals of traditional and the fundamentals of digital and understand like Brian was saying the differences between the two but also how we can combine them.
Brian: I agree with you a hundred percent. Like I said, and when we shifted to that sort of human-centered Agency built for the digital age that's what that implies. You can't be anti any medium. You can't be anti-traditional or digital. You have to be Pro your customer and you have to drive value to your customer period wherever they're at. So that's a great point.
Jenn: Thank you.
Casey: And I think we're what kind of what you said Jenn and in terms of the value through traditional. I think there's still a lot of trust in those traditional mediums so you can't really just get rid of them. Just moved to digital...because it takes time for people to kind of trust those new digital mediums that are up and coming. Whereas, like I said, the traditional mediums definitely have a lot more trust in them.
One thing that I think is going to kind of define the way that things evolve is I think we're kind of in a measurement race. So a race to kind of figure out the best way to measure success not only just within digital or just within traditional but measuring success as it relates to the two of those together.
Brian: I agree completely and it's sort of interesting because we are entering this with voice as well, which is a totally different topic. But you know, you think about how powerful TV is regardless of reach. You're able to tell a story. It's not just an ad you're really able to do something incredible and you think of these classic campaigns that have all been part of our lives, you know, the Nike let me play sports, the Apple 1984 commercial and we think of that now.
The Technology's there through platforms like a Moby or Xander or other things to not buy a TV show but to buy an audience, so you're still doing TV, but you're buying people who have certain behavioral characteristics. So. Pro TV but let's layer some intelligence on top of that by so we just don't have to buy a broad segment.
We can buy something just a little bit more personalized and meaningful to Jenn's point earlier.
Casey: Actually had kind of have a funny story to go along with that. So the other day I was sitting watching TV with my dad and he was watching some sports something or other.
Kelly: SportsBall (laughter).
Casey: He was watching some sports show.
Brian: You went to UGA, don't you like sports?
Casey: I do, I do. So, I think he was watching actually a football game and as he was sitting there their commercial came on and I can't remember exactly what it was but he said - knowing what I do being in marketing - he said it's almost as if this commercial is specific to me as a person and I look back at him and I was like, well it is.
And he was in shock just completely in shock.
Jenn: They're becoming aware, people.
Brian: The people in the Matrix are waking up.
Kelly: That's really funny. Yeah, I mean I think about that all the time too whenever I'm watching TV or I'm online, you know, I mean, obviously, I'm an Advertiser. I work in paid media up so I'm constantly dissecting why am I getting this ad?
But yeah, it's really funny and sometimes a little depressing when you are served certain ads that you don't feel like you should be in a demographic.
Jenn: You kinda get angry "why?" you can do so much better.
Brian: Quick point of clarification. I wasn't saying the masses - the matrix. I did want to imply that everybody's in the matrix except for marketers, but sometimes knowing what we know there's so much intelligence out there and it's like okay, they really do know me in this is scary and as you get older and I like I said, I'm a little bit older than some of you guys have been in this industry a long time.
Yeah. I didn't have a mobile phone till I was 27 and that was normal then it was normal because mobile phones were sort of new but
Kelly: Zack Morris phone.
Brian: No, no. No, it was a flip. I had my flip phone, you know, and I never had a beeper. So I have to call that
Kelly: I did. I did actually have a beeper in high school.
Brian: Yeah, we digress, it is one of those things where I am I want things to be personal to me. I don't want to be overly creepy. But you also want it to be meaningful.
Casey: Yeah and going on like you said that expectation. I know and Kelly you said that you almost get mad. I sometimes almost take the approach of like if I have bought something and then I can add I'm almost like, you should know I already bought this.
Kelly: You're wasting your budget. We touched on measurement and attribution a little bit, but I would love to go into that a little bit deeper between the two, you know, what are the things if I am a digital buyer and I want to delve into some advanced TV buyers. What do I need to know about measurement and then vice versa if I'm a linear TV buyer and I want to delve into advanced TV is there.....What are the differences there?
Jenn: Brian touched on this earlier, but sort of this dichotomy between impressions and reach versus interactions when he saw that earlier I was thinking, it's when digital marketers and traditional marketers start venturing over into each other's lanes. They start to get uncomfortable with the measurement, right?
So, as a digital marketer when I do a big branding play or you know, venture into things where there's not as much opportunity for a user to actually interact with something in a trackable way. I'm like, whoa. How are you measuring success know? We can't, you know, measure interactions, clicks, conversions.
I'm very uncomfortable with that. But in the same vein, I think you know is that if your traditional first and you're delving into more trackable mediums, you're like, okay, I had go beyond impressions and eyeballs and reach and think about okay what action am I wanting my user to take and I think it's sort of uncomfortable for each marketer to really start thinking differently about their advertising.
Brian: To jump into that a little bit. I think it's going to be - marketers are going to have to up their games a lot because the reality is for some of our clients are very digitally focused. They can sometimes inadvertently stumble into a place where they look at everything as direct response and not everything's direct response.
You know, there's an entire funnel, you know, and if your brand matters and so sometimes from a digital-first perspective the brand gets lost. Sometimes from a traditional perspective interaction and engagement gets lost and when we're doing campaigns that combine both we're having to do some really sophisticated analysis like our intelligence team.
I feel sorry for 'em. You know, on a recent buy they're trying to take digital expectations and traditional data points and do really complicated analysis and say, okay these TV spots ran in this time. How are we going to attribute branded search? How are we going to attribute increased traffic to some of these things? And then how do we look at that in terms of all the attribution and all the touchpoints and say what does this actually look like in terms of a customer journey?
I mean this really really hard and no one traditional first or digital-first or truly integrated. Nobody has the answer truly right now and we're things as a marketer we talked about things being scary and personalized the only way we're going to get that is if we get to biometrics. And you doing seriously like, you know retina and eyeball, that's the way things truly get measured if we really want to measure. But even as a marketer, I don't know if I want to live in that Orwellian world.
Jenn: I think there's an underlying tension, too, with measurement. I don't know if we want to open this can of worms right now. But anyway things like CCPA and GDPR it's forcing marketers to think about how do we measure in the future? Brian mentioned earlier, you know, cookies are more and more becoming obsolete. So, how are we going to measure the success of any sort of campaign that we put out there without that first-party data?
Brian: One thing to add to that real quick is we're used to standard instrumental measurements.
Nielsen ratings were Impressions were used to measuring clicks or conversions. But the way this technology is coming and Casey, you know way more about this night in a lot of ways because you're more familiar with the current platforms. Some of these platforms are black boxes in terms of information, you know, you're not getting information from Amazon.
You're not getting information from Apple many times. And so when you're doing things on those platforms or when people are watching TV through Fire TV, or they're doing - it's like I don't even have access to analyze the data sometimes.
Jenn: This one challenge with voice right now is you know marketers are trying to get into voice but no one knows really how to measure if it's successful or not.
Casey: That's one thing like someone mentioned earlier about brand uplift. I think that's a big thing at least for me on TV and connected TV is. Getting comfortable with reporting on just brand uplift the major changes and trends that we've seen and using that to kind of make insights and determine if we are seeing a bigger impact and how those things also work together with linear TV, connected TV, OTT, all of that.
Kelly: I always love a good geo-targeted test. You know, if you're trying to test into something new a big brand awareness play, you know, focus it on one area and see if you can derive any insights based on uplift in that one area compared to something else.
Brian: Kelly, If you don't mind, I want to ask a question, too, because like I said, you guys have a lot more experience than I do. You guys have a lot more experience in this than I do. But you know, do you think there's a difference between how people experience an ad and what we should expect of an ad when it's linear versus OTT versus some other ways those are delivered even if it is TV.
Kelly: I think yes in some capacity. I know we were actually just talking, Casey, you, and I, with some other team members about an upcoming campaign that we're planning for one of our clients where we are currently looking at different connected TV providers to identify what will be the best route to go forward with. But also who we choose influences the creative, because for example if we're going to go with Discovery, our ads will be showing on a certain type of content. So we would want to align that messaging and the creative with the kind of content that people will be viewing.
So definitely there's an influence there. And then also when you're talking more about streaming video versus commercial on an Ott device you definitely have different consumption trends, I guess.
Casey: Yeah, and I would agree with that completely and it kind of goes back to making sure that you're hitting people at the right stage and the buyer journey and so kind of knowing what stage they're at on that specific platform? I would say is a big thing.
Brian: I'm glad you brought up buyer journey. I'm not gonna go too far into that because we have an upcoming episode on that and it's really exciting and I love talking about that voice in the buyer journey, but it is challenging and one of the things I think that we're also going to see and we haven't talked about a lot in terms of the differences, but also in terms of measurement and closing loop at both converges is in store.
If you think about you know, Amazon and Whole Foods, you're interacting with them online, you're interacting with TV. But then if you have their app, the Whole Foods app we can get a discount and you have the Amazon app. There's a lot of information there and that convergence is also going to happen in-store within store displays with in-store experiences with experiential elements of that. But to think about that from measurement standpoint a lot of times I'm adding stuff to cart and I order Amazon now or I've had stuff to cart then I go into Whole Foods.
And obviously then by some of that stuff is very interesting some of the measurements that are out there, now. I think that Amazon's keeping all that themselves and you know, and they probably have wizards that are doing wizard stuff but there's also going to be a convergence for traditional for things like in-store displays and other things.
Kelly: But, I mean they also are opening up opportunities for people to buy digital out of home in smaller segments. So, one of the examples the rep that we talked to gave was you don't have to spend a ton of money in order to be in Times Square anymore. You can say I want to buy an hour of Times Square real estate and you know, it's a lot more affordable and you can have an impact. So it's changing the way that we buy from like a tactical piece in terms of we can go specifically online and buy out-of-home digitally, but we also don't have to commit to super-long buy where you have a static billboard that's going to be up for x amount of time.
Casey: And going along with that. Like you said and buying a billboard almost instantly say there's a concert happening that night and they're trying to essentially sell more tickets. They can decide. Okay, we're going to throw up a billboard in Times Square for 30 minutes track all the purchases they get and then end that buy as soon as they have reached their goals or whatever.
That's something I would say that is very new. You could never do that a couple of years ago.
Brian: Casey, you really just got me very excited because like I said, I lived in a pre-Internet world, but when you know, when search was really emerging and one of the things that we did fairly early on was a lot of you know Google scripts and things like that where we had clients and if the weather was nice we could have ads triggered because you're trying to get somebody to go play golf at a golf course or you know, you're trying to this. That is really interesting from a billboard standpoint. If you can do those things based on external factors, that's really interesting not just selling the tickets, but all of a sudden it's raining in your in Times Square and you're trying to sell umbrellas or something like that.
It's probably a bad example, but that that's that's transformative.
Kelly: Oh, yeah. I mean, they also have facial recognition technology that can change the creative based on the surrounding factors.
Casey: If you're wearing glasses or yeah, maybe not in Times Square but on if you're passing an expressway what color car you're driving what the make of the car is.
Kelly: If you're walking a dog and what breed of dog it is, changes that.
Casey: When we were talking to some of these different vendors at first, I was like well, why would you need to change the breed of dog? And they said well, you're definitely much more apt to relate to something when it's your dog. So if you're walking say a pit bull and it's a pit bull and like please help me Humane Society something or other. You're going to stop and be like, oh as opposed to if it was a small dog that you weren't really able to relate to as much.
Jenn: That's really creepy. I love it! That actually reminds me of a Black Mirror episode essentially. There were these, digital, sort of, mirrors and there were ads and they would recognize the person and scan their face their body and they would put the person in the actual ad. And I imagine we'll eventually get there one day. I mean, we're already sort of doing that with AR/ VR right now, but the director of our intelligence team was telling me a story about one of her past lives and she worked for a big ad agency and they had a client that had a lot of in-store retail locations and they used facial recognition technology to gauge whether people were happy or sad or mad. So taking emotions and then they would change the music as well as the sent in the retail store based on if people were skewing more one negative or positive and I just think that's so cool.
Kelly: It really is I can only imagine what music would come on when I'm shopping.
All right. So we've talked a lot about the differences between digital and traditional and we've touched on the industry's evolution and the merger between the two but to wrap it up, I'd love to hear from all of you on what this change in media means for advertisers and what we need to do specifically to prepare.
Jenn: Acknowledge it. Stay open-minded.
Kelly: Embrace it.
Jenn: Yeah, Embrace. We've been in this environment for so long where technology is pushing and changing so quickly that we've sort of trained ourselves to expect the unexpected and I think it's important for us to just keep thinking about the future and the possibilities and potentially testing, and just acknowledging that things are going to change.
We're going to see a screenless future. We're going to see voice AND. You know, there are a lot of exciting changes and I think keeping an open mind about those things would help us.
Brian: One of the things I did this and anybody that you know knows me for a long time probably have heard me say this a few times, but if you are really smart if you understand all the technology if you understand all the measurement if you know all the things and you do all the things that you're supposed to do as an advertiser/marketer you're a C player.
Really to step up your game, you need to have empathy and sympathy. At the end of the day. It doesn't matter what technology is there. It doesn't matter what societal shifts in terms of targeting or consumption. At the end of the day, we need to understand that there is a family of four that lives in, you know, Kennesaw, Georgia that they're about to buy a car.
That car is going to be a huge part of their disposable income. It's going to be something where they take family vacations. It's going to be a part of their life experience. It might be their son's first car when he turns 16. And we as marketers need to understand what that means to that family not how to be there in front of them.
We need to say, what do they need to know? How do we empower them to make the best decision for their family? And if we take that approach then we can back into all the technology and all the mediums. I think sometimes we get lost and you know with all the noise, but it's really sometimes it's good to center and then you can figure out the rest.
Casey: I think as I think I mentioned at the very beginning was consumers are expecting more from marketers and advertisers and I think, going along to your point, Brian, I think that they are essentially expecting more in terms of the advertisers and the marketers keeping them at the center of their focus while they're expecting more in terms of things being quicker and us hitting them right where they're at that really comes down to the user experience and us keeping the user at the center of the universe.
Kelly: I'll just close this by talking about the importance of cross-team alignment. So I think you know media buyers and planners need to be 100% aligned with analysts and you know analytics teams and traditional teams need to be aligned with digital teams, whether those teams are within one agency or within an in-house team or you know, across multiple agencies and client-side team.
It's really important to make sure that all of those things are aligned so we can understand measurement we can understand impact we can align on creative and overarching strategy. So, we just need to be collaborative.
Kelly: Alright. Do you have any final thoughts?
Brian: Tune in to the next episode; it's gonna be so exciting! You know, if you are in paid media you need this is where it's at. This will be the number one paid media podcast in the world in my opinion.
Jenn: Brian's our best hype man.
Kelly: Thanks, Brian. All right. Well, thank you all so much for joining me with this conversation. I think we talked about a lot of really exciting things and you had a lot of great insights. Thanks for joining us!
Jenn: Thanks, Kelly.
Casey: Thank you.
Kelly: Our next episode, we are going to be diving more into the consumer journey and how that has played a role in the evolution of digital and traditional media buying. If you guys have any questions or comments or feedback thoughts that you would like to share, please email us at email@example.com. And also please rate like subscribe review, whatever you can do with a podcast, we'd love for you to do it. Tune in next time. Thanks so much!